The OFFICIAL programming thread

[Gators1]

@Hog said in The OFFICIAL programming thread:

@Gators1 said in The OFFICIAL programming thread:

Was playing with vibe coding to get some ideas for a map plotting app I have been working on. App is pretty simple but not used to the library. I pretty much just let the AI do it’s thing and it got worse and worse over time. It keeps dropping md files with summaries of changes it makes instead of updating the task file and went from a working app to completely fucked up over a request for a color change. Here’s the current structure and the main.py is over 500 lines just to load a parquet file and plot the data with some user parameter widgets on a webpage. Sadly I think Skynet is many years away.

I recently started following this stuff on Reddit and it’s interesting to hear what people say you have to do to overcome all these issues. It’s a lot of work and, unless you are unfamiliar with the target language, it’s probably bordering on being easier to code it yourself. Every now and then you’ll get a “I’m rage-quitting ai-coding” post that says all the mitigations are bullshit and you still end up with a unmaintainable mess.

Dunno, I’m still of the opinion that it’s slightly more value than it is a hassle but I do surgical changes one at a time and never big bang a bunch of changes. Even with the way I use it, making sure the AI isn’t fucking up your app is still tiring and stressful though.

Yeah, targeted changes aren’t bad. You can easily see what happens in the diff. It’s more like when you request a significant change and it comes back with 300 lines of changes across 10 files. It got wierd though with some error fixes where it was writing entirely new files to test things and the md files describing the changes it made that it already also described in the chat window. Have not seen that before.

[tigger]

@Slpr said in The OFFICIAL programming thread:

@Hog said in The OFFICIAL programming thread:

@Slpr said in The OFFICIAL programming thread:

@Hog said in The OFFICIAL programming thread:

@Slpr said in The OFFICIAL programming thread:

@Hog said in The OFFICIAL programming thread:

@Hog said in The OFFICIAL programming thread:

Best way is to just get in and try it / start using Linux but I don’t know enough about your scenario to make an intelligent contribution.

Making this a separate reply because an edit might be missed:

Best way to --> get familiar with and learn Linux <-- is to get in and try it / start using it. Not sure it’s a great idea to learn with something that is critical or that could have financial and legal implications because you are contractually responsible for supporting it.

Let me ask you this, you’re old enough, have you ever even build your own kernel?


So long Slpr

Nah, the biggest thing like that that I ever attempted was writing my own language, parser and compiler in Rust. Didn’t finish it (I mean, it worked but was missing half the features I wanted) but I learned a lot doing it.

No no, you misconstrued, I did not mean to write your own kernel, I meant compile one or a couple thereof to your needs (from scratch at best).


So long Slpr

Ah okay. No, not yet. I keep meaning to work through Linux From Scratch one day but haven’t got there yet.

No worries, but it is gratifying booting your own kernel for the first time, not that I went that far building a whole business backbone out of a self compiling distribution like @rote7 did when he worked for a local cable company.


So long Slpr

This is pretty strange to me tbh. Back in the day nothing would work without patches and hacks, no? Did I just live on particularly unusual hardware? Generally ethernet would not work, sound cards would not work, later in the early 2000s the WiFi cards we stuck into our laptops wouldn’t be working without rewriting the drivers here and there…
I rather remember the first time I was running a stock kernel and everything was fine.

Maybe that’s when I learned to hate computers?

[oyaji]

@Slpr said in The OFFICIAL programming thread:

booting your own kernel

Now that got my attention.

Is that the sort of thing that is required to defeat surveillance and hacking? I mean, like for a limited feature Android phone and/or Linux laptop? I’ve been wanting that sort of thing since teh 9ty-'leventy.

You know, to be able to go back to the kind of Internet that Al Gore invented, and the kind of phone service that was available back then.

[Hog]

I just put up with broken hardware for the most part although I vaguely recall buying more compatible gear once or twice. I think I was always able to eventually find a WiFi or ethernet driver that worked but I do remember having one or two machines without working sound.

Like you said, most of that stuff just works now but I think it’s another argument for microkernels. I’m guessing you could virtualize window drivers where a Linux driver didn’t exist. Would have been too slow maybe a decade ago but probably not now.

Edit: Gemini and Claude say no.

[Slpr]

@oyaji said in The OFFICIAL programming thread:

@Slpr said in The OFFICIAL programming thread:

booting your own kernel

Now that got my attention.

Is that the sort of thing that is required to defeat surveillance and hacking? I mean, like for a limited feature Android phone and/or Linux laptop? I’ve been wanting that sort of thing since teh 9ty-'leventy.

You know, to be able to go back to the kind of Internet that Al Gore invented, and the kind of phone service that was available back then.

Well that was in the early days of linux, at times you had to compile your own kernel, set variables differently and/or aplly fixes to get other processses working properly. But also to prevent hacking, yes. But even today I believe having a stripped down to the essentials/minimal kernel is the way to go.


So long Slpr

[oyaji]

@Slpr said in The OFFICIAL programming thread:

@oyaji said in The OFFICIAL programming thread:

@Slpr said in The OFFICIAL programming thread:

booting your own kernel

Now that got my attention.

Is that the sort of thing that is required to defeat surveillance and hacking? I mean, like for a limited feature Android phone and/or Linux laptop? I’ve been wanting that sort of thing since teh 9ty-'leventy.

You know, to be able to go back to the kind of Internet that Al Gore invented, and the kind of phone service that was available back then.

Well that was in the early days of linux, at times you had to compile your own kernel, set variables differently and/or aplly fixes to get other processses working properly. But also to prevent hacking, yes. But even today I believe having a stripped down to the essentials/minimal kernel is the way to go.


So long Slpr

So how can I get a stripped down system on my phone? And laptop? Getting stuck with all that bloatware on Windows was why I wanted Linux in the first place, back around Y2K.

[Slpr]

@oyaji said in The OFFICIAL programming thread:

@Slpr said in The OFFICIAL programming thread:

@oyaji said in The OFFICIAL programming thread:

@Slpr said in The OFFICIAL programming thread:

booting your own kernel

Now that got my attention.

Is that the sort of thing that is required to defeat surveillance and hacking? I mean, like for a limited feature Android phone and/or Linux laptop? I’ve been wanting that sort of thing since teh 9ty-'leventy.

You know, to be able to go back to the kind of Internet that Al Gore invented, and the kind of phone service that was available back then.

Well that was in the early days of linux, at times you had to compile your own kernel, set variables differently and/or aplly fixes to get other processses working properly. But also to prevent hacking, yes. But even today I believe having a stripped down to the essentials/minimal kernel is the way to go.


So long Slpr

So how can I get a stripped down system on my phone? And laptop? Getting stuck with all that bloatware on Windows was why I wanted Linux in the first place, back around Y2K.

Have not done Android myself yet, but it is possible. HowTo For your laptop it depends on your distribution, there are several great websites for that. For example kernelnewbies or archlinux.


So long Slpr

[oyaji]

@Slpr said in The OFFICIAL programming thread:

@oyaji said in The OFFICIAL programming thread:

@Slpr said in The OFFICIAL programming thread:

@oyaji said in The OFFICIAL programming thread:

@Slpr said in The OFFICIAL programming thread:

booting your own kernel

Now that got my attention.

Is that the sort of thing that is required to defeat surveillance and hacking? I mean, like for a limited feature Android phone and/or Linux laptop? I’ve been wanting that sort of thing since teh 9ty-'leventy.

You know, to be able to go back to the kind of Internet that Al Gore invented, and the kind of phone service that was available back then.

Well that was in the early days of linux, at times you had to compile your own kernel, set variables differently and/or aplly fixes to get other processses working properly. But also to prevent hacking, yes. But even today I believe having a stripped down to the essentials/minimal kernel is the way to go.


So long Slpr

So how can I get a stripped down system on my phone? And laptop? Getting stuck with all that bloatware on Windows was why I wanted Linux in the first place, back around Y2K.

Have not done Android myself yet, but it is possible. HowTo For your laptop it depends on your distribution, there are several great websites for that. For example kernelnewbies or archlinux.


So long Slpr

Is it possible I will live long enough to complete this?

[Kilemall]

@Slpr said in The OFFICIAL programming thread:

@oyaji said in The OFFICIAL programming thread:

@Slpr said in The OFFICIAL programming thread:

booting your own kernel

Now that got my attention.

Is that the sort of thing that is required to defeat surveillance and hacking? I mean, like for a limited feature Android phone and/or Linux laptop? I’ve been wanting that sort of thing since teh 9ty-'leventy.

You know, to be able to go back to the kind of Internet that Al Gore invented, and the kind of phone service that was available back then.

Well that was in the early days of linux, at times you had to compile your own kernel, set variables differently and/or aplly fixes to get other processses working properly. But also to prevent hacking, yes. But even today I believe having a stripped down to the essentials/minimal kernel is the way to go.


So long Slpr

My remembery was it was very useful for customizing your kernel to do exactly what you needed and not waste cycles doing generic OS busywork. Significant benefits.

Then yes things like dual core had to be recompiled in.

[Kilemall]

What do you expect your stripped down Linux phone to be able to do?

[Gustaf]

Record TikTok dance videos.

[oyaji]

@Kilemall said in The OFFICIAL programming thread:

What do you expect your stripped down Linux phone to be able to do?

Make phone calls, take photos, and be able to text them.

Oh, and leave as few tracks as possible.

[Kilemall]

@oyaji said in The OFFICIAL programming thread:

@Kilemall said in The OFFICIAL programming thread:

What do you expect your stripped down Linux phone to be able to do?

Make phone calls, take photos, and be able to text them.

Oh, and leave as few tracks as possible.

Well you can cut out the internet which is a lot of tracking, but you’ll have to support the text format and whatever security hoops your phone provider has for that. Plus your camera app.

[oyaji]

Are there college kids I could hire to do this sort of thing for me cheaply?

And will the phone company and teh gummint get mad at me? I want all their bullshit trackers and shit gone.

And I also want all the hardware inside that I don’t need f’n gone too. I think I have a guy for that already, if I can’t do it myself. I can get old phones dirt cheap or free.

[Kilemall]

@oyaji said in The OFFICIAL programming thread:

Are there college kids I could hire to do this sort of thing for me cheaply?

And will the phone company and teh gummint get mad at me? I want all their bullshit trackers and shit gone.

They’ll still track your phone usage and likely save off photos. Phone company has to to get the photo to your intended destination, than whatever the government imposes or makes deal for.

[oyaji]

@Kilemall said in The OFFICIAL programming thread:

@oyaji said in The OFFICIAL programming thread:

Are there college kids I could hire to do this sort of thing for me cheaply?

And will the phone company and teh gummint get mad at me? I want all their bullshit trackers and shit gone.

They’ll still track your phone usage and likely save off photos. Phone company has to to get the photo to your intended destination, than whatever the government imposes or makes deal for.

None of their business what parts I take pictures of to try to find replacements from dealers across the country. Wish I could stop teh fckrs.

[Gustaf]

Buy a film camera.

[Kilemall]

@Gustaf said in The OFFICIAL programming thread:

Buy a film camera.

I gotta guy in Switzerland…

[Gustaf]

Sweden

[Hog]

I know from years of learning other shit that the SmallTalk language has been hugely influential in programming but I’ve never used it or seen it used in the wild and I was curious about it. Turns out there is a modern variant called Pharo that is under active development so I downloaded it and started playing with it last night.

SmallTalk is kind of weird and is giving me strong Common Lisp vibes: Stupidly simple syntax and programming in a running state machine (image) where you develop by changing the program while it’s running.

Below is what is claimed to be the full syntax of the language:

I just love how all this shit exists and is free for anyone to use or play with.